I voted for him. My mistake.

[wolfwings]

Someone that's worked in this country for a decade, payed their taxes, is flying home in a couple weeks because nobody can hire them because they've been unable to be allowed to immigrate.

It disgusts me that this happens, while those that bum-rush across the border by any means they can and disregard our laws entirely are now being given a free pass.

Both aspects disgust me, that they both in effect mean the same thing: It doesn't pay to even try to obey the immigration laws in this country anymore, a country that is one of the most immigrant-based countries of a large size I know of, second only to Australia.

No, we can't afford to actually 'secure our borders' like people keep preaching, I hold no illusion on that. And deporting them doesn't slow anything down, if anything I'd be all for imprisioning them for 30 days before deportation just to delay the flow of them back in and impact the money going back out to discourage things.

The core problem to me is simply the unfairness that someone perfectly willing to pay taxes and obey the laws of the land is banned from working here, but those that flaunt our laws and flip the bird to us, get in and get work.

Unless you can justify why my friend I've known for years is having to fly home after living in this country for a decade working at a single job for the majority of that, but was unable to immigrate despite their proven work ethic and ability and willingness to obey our laws and regulations, don't try to convince me that this ruling is a good one. Save your typing. I'll leave comments enabled for now though.

Comments

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

Pathia,

Based on the things you got wrong in your post, you should probably read this: Text: S.B. 1070 as enacted (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf)

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Well without saying what I got wrong, I can't really reply to this, I've read the bill several times.

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

The most glaring error is that anyone can be held incommunicado. There is nothing in the bill that supersedes state and federal law requiring access to a phone and an attorney. Nor is there anything in law that permits an undocumented (no booking) arrest.

Another fairly brilliant error is your suggestion that simply walking down the road while Hispanic is enough to get you tossed in the slammer. The officer has to be in contact with the subject on another legitimate matter before he can inquire about the immigration status.

But not to worry. The Justice Department under pressure from White House will do their best to shut down Arizona's attempts to maintain control of their state. While the law is in limbo, President Calderon will continue his remarkably effective business model of exporting poverty to the US.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

The law says 'detain' not arrest. You can be held for a certain amount of time without being charged with anything. I know this, because it's happened to me on two occasions. I was accused of being a prostitute with no evidence, arrested and they kept me for 24hours just for the fucking hell of it.

You're talking to the wrong person if you expect me to believe that every cop in Arizona is going to be fair, just and not abuse the law.

As for walking down the road while Hispanic. That *IS* enough. I have hispanic family, american citizen family, that have been harassed for being hispanic in Arizona. They're leaving the state and they're citizens because of the harassment by police, with no charges and this is BEFORE this law ever went into effect.

I'm not speaking out of my ass here, I'm talking about things that have happened to family. Things I've heard about over the phone not long after they happened.

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

Dear Lady,

It troubles me that your experience was with bad police officers. However if your "detention" was unjust there is recourse. You should have pursued it. There are a couple things in your story that need clearing up. Were you held without access to a phone or legal counsel? Did they fail to book you? (Prints, pictures and personal data.) If either of those are true you stand to become remarkably well off after the judge is done with them.

However, we are not talking anecdotal war stories here. No law is going to stop bad police officers. We are talking what is actually written in the law.

What the law is designed to do is curtail the flow of illegal aliens that are destroying the way of life for people living near the US-Mexican border. The law is to partially step into the gap created when the Untied States abdicated their responsibility to secure the borders. The shooting death of Robert Krentz by illegal immigrants crossing his ranch is the final straw a string of high profile events that brought this law into being.

And the law was already having the desired effect even before it took effect. The flow of illegals coming into the US through Arizona already fell off dramatically. Illegals already in the state left.

But like I said, the Obama White House and the Justice Department will fight to the bitter end. So the Mexican business model of exporting their poor to the United States will continue for quite some time.

Don't get me wrong here. I do not begrudge the poor coming south for work. I think we need a guest worker program and a legal path to citizenship. But the unions have Obama in their pocket so that is never going to happen.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

I was fully booked, at the time I was disowned by my family, so I really didn't have alot of options on that phone call. I'm transsexual, so there was no legal recourse, it's not a recognized status in the state it happened in (Virginia). I talked to the ACLU, but they said there was absolutely no grounds to even try a lawsuit.

To this day the arrest record costs me jobs and promotions as it's a matter of public record.

Apparently being transsexual and walking down the street after a night class automatically makes you a prostitute, even if you're wearing jeans and a t-shirt like every other young adult in the country.

As for what happened to my uncle in Arizona that's making them move.

First, he had his wallet stolen.
Second, he was pulled over for DWB, they didn't give a reason.
Three, of course as his wallet was stolen they assumed he was an illegal, because he was brown.
Four, since he had lost all his identification, they had to same-day air/process a copy of his birth certificate from Virginia all the way to Arizona before they'd let him out. They didn't believe any of the identification his wife brought, or their marriage license etc. They required a birth cert. Refused to make any phone calls to verify anything, they only wanted paper docs.

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

The ACLU is right, procedure was followed. The law allows you to communicate with the outside world. The does not require there be someone for you to communicate with. So none of that has any bearing on the Arizona law.

But there is something wrong here. Did you actually charged and went to court or were you kicked loose without charges? The problem I'm seeing is that an arrest record shouldn't be showing up on public record searches. We cannot even pull arrest records on a general search. We have to go to the specific agency(s) and ask. About half that time they won't release those records anyway unless there is a conviction to go with them.

People are arrested all the time, but not everyone is convicted. Those that are not convicted shouldn't have to explain away a false arrest. In many states that is the law as well.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

No charges were ever filed, but the arrest records still show if you dig deep enough, especially when they try to check for security clearances.

What about my uncle's case? That was *IN* Arizona.

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

What about it? They followed procedure. I'm getting the impression you don't deal with law enforcement on a regular basis. They don't do anything on a phone call. It was a perfect storm for your uncle and I'm sorry for that. But without the paper work to prove who he was, let alone his citizenship, they weren't about to let him go.

I know it doesn't help mend angry feelings toward law enforcement. But you need to try to understand that law enforcement has heard every line you can think of and a lot you never even dreamed of more then once before. They simply are not going kick someone lose because that person or someone close to them says there is a mistake. Nor are they going to kick someone lose with out a paper trail documenting why they did it.

None of them wants to the be the officer that kicked the serial rapist/killer lose because someone on the other end of a phone said it was ok. (More then likely that someone will deny the call later.)

But again, none of this has anything to do with the Arizona law. You uncle was taken in to custody for some other reason. The immigration law was not in place and I am willing to bet a great deal he was being held for positive identification rather then proof of his citizenship.

[pathia.livejournal.com]

Um...his wife came by in person with the documents, she wasn't on the phone.
and did you read this case? http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2009/08/30/917007/nc-native-wrongly-deported-to.html

As for cops, no I do not trust them. I was assaulted in an attempted rape and they threatened to arrest me instead, because I was 'hysterical' and intoxicated as I stood there with my clothing ripped up and bleeding in several places.

See, they thought it was really funny that someone would try to rape a 'man'.

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

Yes I read it. No question about it, the article you linked details a system gone awry. But I can't help but wonder if you read it. The article clearly states he told the ICE agent that he was Mexican.

I ignored that article because it has zero to do with the Arizona law. As near as I can tell, Lyttle never set foot in Arizona. If he had set foot there, it still wouldn't matter because the law was not in effect at this time.

It is too bad you feel that way about the police. They are not all bad. It is sad that the officers you dealt with are so narrow minded and dealt with you so badly. As a former paramedic, I can assure there is an enormous amount of gallows humor that goes with both both jobs. It is inexcusable these officers chose to drag out in front of you. That humor is a safety valve to be kept among the family. Without it many would crack up, maybe even suicide.

I spent a great deal of time working in New Orleans right after Katrina. I now know from personal experience what happens when you and everyone else knows that dialing 911 will no longer bring help. That gives you an entirely different view on police officers and what they really do for this society.

But none of this has any bearing on the Arizona Immigration law. There are going to be good cops, average cops and bad cops. The bad ones are going to be bad ones regardless of what laws are or are not on the books. The Arizona law is a good one and will in fact go a long way toward bridging the gap left by Federal dereliction of duty along the southern the border.

I'm beginning to repeat myself here so you get the last word. Thank you for the debate.

[finnkveldulfr.livejournal.com]

Way too many police officers are hopped up a**holes with a badge on a power trip. There are way too many examples of bad cops in front of society every day. There are way too many ways for Law Enforcement officers to abuse the new Arizona law, and for all the good cops that may or may not exist in Arizona, there are going to be a lot of police officers out there who *ARE* going to abuse the law to the maximum extent. Your rose-colored glasses view of police isn't going to change that.

Furthermore-- hmmmmm.... guess I just didn't have my eyes open when I spent 3 months in SE Arizona (based at Ft Huachuca, but spent plenty of time out in the local communities-- Sierra Vista, Bisbee, Tombstone, etc-- VERY close to the US/Mexico border), but I just didn't see or hear about problems with illegal immigrants out there.

[uplinktruck.livejournal.com]

Make that North. It seems I can't edit my posts here.